Wednesday, June 24, 2009

इतनी बहस बुर्क़े पर

Sarkozy: In France we cannot accept women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life...The burka is not a religious sign. It is a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement...It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic.

मैं फिर अपना शेर दोहराता हूँ -

न जाने कुफ्र-ओ-ईमां की कहाँ जाकर हदें छूटें,
चलो ढूँढें नया कोई अमीर-ए-कारवाँ अपना।

(कुफ्र-ओ-इमाँ - आस्तिकता और नास्तिकता , हदें छूटें - सीमाओं से बाहर आयें, अमीर-ए-कारवाँ - नेतृत्व करने वाला, कारवाँ की अगुवाई करने वाला)

Facebook पर जनाब तारेक फतह के पेज पर इस बहस को आपके सामने रख रहा हूँ

Ali Butt at 9:31pm June 23
because his wife likes to take off her clothes in public without any hesitation। why would he like burka.

Tarek Fatah at 9:36pm June 23

Ali Butt,I was wondering how long it will take for a someone to take the conversation into the gutter. You did not dissapoint me.Why do you have to talk someone's wife? Couldn;t you make your case why you want the burka instead of fantasizing about Mrs. Sarkozy' nudity?

Hayat Jomaa at 9:55pm June 23
you know this argument could be both ways.....i find the burka demeaning to women, i think they are literally in a prison and they seem to convince their minds that it is what they want and overtime perhaps they become so convinced it is the right way to go that it would be counterproductive for us to to antagonize them. on the one hand if these ...women want to wear the burka, let them no one else is suffering their prison but them. but i do agree that when they enter a different civilization where the laws are different, they have to respect these laws. after all islam dictates that muslims anywhere in the world must respect the laws of the country hosting them. so these women cannot wear the burka in france and expect a welcome so if they choose to wear it, they should go to places that are more tolerant of these eccentricities

Najat Kessler at 10:21pm June 23

Hayat,this kind of argument just sends me to the roof! When and why educated people in the free world get confused about basic common sense? Let me explain: when a woman wears "whatever the hell that ugly black outfit is called" she does not do it, because so to speak she "chooses" to wear the damn thing. She is beaten into submission from a ... tender age meaning when she is a child, a state of complete availability and vulnerably. Now, keep in mind that she is also taught that is what the Almithy God wants her to do. She is also made to believe that being controlled abused will make the Almaighty God happy with her. So how on the earth can we expect of such women to miraculously reject their ugly outfits once they have immigrated? Besides political Islam wants to make this kind of abuse a legal practice under the banner of religion. In a decent society a child should not be abused in anyway, shape or form! And this includes religious abuse be it Catholic or Islamic.Kind Regards,

Julie McGregor at 10:32pm June 23

The Taliban enforced the Burqa, and it is not mentioned Quran. The Taliban were created by Islamic extremist's who took orphaned Afghan boys from refugee camps during the Soviet invasion and raised them in Pakistani Mosques funded unwittingly by the American government. Money meant to help the refugees. I have ask, why would the Pakistan ... Read More government want to raise these boys to hate women? And did Pakistan have an ulterior motive to take over Afghanistan? It is all born out of fear. Woman in southern Afghanistan today wear the Burqa for safety reasons, if not they would be punished by the Taliban or husbands who believe it is part of their religion. Otherwise, unless you want to hide your face there is no reason to wear a Burqa.

Jussi K. Niemelä at 10:38pm June 23

Burqa is the ultimate symbol of female oppression. It is a shame for the whole humanity to see these horrible pieces of clothing anywhere.

Gregory Da Silva at 10:58pm June 23

Najat, definitely, most people are indoctrinated and coerced as youths into practicing a religion. However, not all Muslim women that are wearing the cloth are being physically forced into the practice. Actually, many Western converts to Islam are choosing it. Children are a different matter. In the Muslim world, most children don't even wear the hijab or niqab.

Hemin Sabir at 11:13pm June 23

NO surprise Tarek these people usually resort to weak ad hominem arguments instead of tackling the main issue. If anything it attests to their lack of knowledge and confidence..

Omar Qadir at 11:23pm June 23

Julie, could we please stop defending Quran for once? instead standing for the countless victims who fall everyday?I don't know how familiar you are to Quran, but actually Burqa is a milder form of what Quran wants. Quran ordres women to stay at home and when a stranger is at their home they should talk to the stranger when they are behind a curtain.I hate talking about this, but can't stand people whose only concern is to defend their Quran and blaming innocent victims of misunderstanding it.

Hayat Jomaa at 11:28pm June 23

ok let me say this again.......i dont care why the hell they wear it, i dont even care if they believe in it or were beaten into it, it is not your place to tell anyone that they need to be liberated (PERIOD). MY ARGUMENT has nothing to do with their choice or lack their off, i couldnt give a damn if they choose to walk naked on the street or to ...wear a tent. i simply said that if you live in a country where the laws are contrary to your beliefs you have to respect these laws, islam ordains that you do so. if you so choose to continue with your beliefs which are antagonistic to the law, you should find a nation that is more acceptable to your eccentricities.....i hope i made myself clear this time.

Sardar Ahmed Shah Jan at 12:36am June 24

I share Hayat Jumaa's views to the last letter. Spoken like a literate muslim.

Najat Kessler at 1:28am June 24

Hayat: I do care. We should never turn a blind eye to any sort of abuse. Be it religious or other, because my dear Hayat, it is a necessity not a luxury. If you don't care, it will catch up with YOU no matter where you are (PERIOD). It is no a question of wanting to liberate someone it is a necessity for peaceful human cohabitation in our world ... today! Besides, everyone of these women was once a child. Every child has the right to be a child and not be turned into a religious propaganda tool.Besides, once in human history it was the law in many countries if you were black (or a woman) you were to be a propriety of someone else! It took courageous people from all walks of life to stand up and say NO in order to end slavery. That is how you get to enjoy your freedom today!It behove us to care about others for our own good and that of all children and humans on our planet.

Julie McGregor at 1:56am June 24

Omar, I was not defending the Quran. My point was that women should not be made to wear a Burqa for religious reasons or any reason at all.

Ajita Kamal at 2:30am June 24

I agree with Najat and others here who are for government intervention to end this oppression of women. Oppression can be through force or indoctrination. Freedom of expression ends where one's freedoms impinge on the freedoms of others, including on their freedoms not to be indoctrinated and oppressed. In civil society we make such judgments all the time.

Hayat Jomaa at 3:58am June 24

That is nice, you guys can intervene all you want but it is not your place to tell these women who are headstrong on wearing their traditional clothes not to and they need to be liberated. try telling them their beliefs are wrong and see how well they react. dont worry najat it is not going to catch up to YOU. point of the matter is societies are... ever changing and change has to come from within the society not outside it. if you want to intervene you should not put a gun to someones head and tell them you better take it off. then you would sound like Bush who was trying to bring democracy by force it is counterproductive (PERIOD).

Ajita Kamal at 4:20am June 24

The Bush analogy is a terrible analogy and does not apply here. You are picking something that is considered a horrendous violation of human rights by general consensus. No one is talking about starting a killing spree of all those wearing burkas. A better analogy is slavery. Many Southern plantation owners and even some Northern yankees argued ... that imposing a ban on slavery would be counterproductive and would only increase slavery. Government intervention was the answer then. It was the answer when Blacks were given he right to vote and women were given equal rights. After progressive ideas have been implemented by human rights ideals it takes years for it to become general consensus. Another great analogy is the caste system in Hindu society, where "upper caste" people argue that it is freedom of expression, when in reality it is oppression through indoctrination. Change comes from within and from without- but it always comes through people who care.

Tarek Fatah at 4:36am June 24

Hayat,After reading what you have written, you come across as someone who is apologising for one of the Arab world's worst contributions to the world: the encasement of women in a black shroud.I hear this defence or apology of the cursed shroud for too many women who themselves would never wear it, but then defend it in the name of choice.... This vulgarity should be labelled for what it is--a curse on women. The poltically correct spin to defend the head-to-toe black shroud will never hide the fact this article of clothing has no purpose other than to enslave women.

Saqib Tahir at 6:20am June 24

I completely support Pres. Sarkozi's views. Burqa should be banned in all civilized world. If Turkey, an Islamic country, can ban Burka 70 years ago why cannot a modern democracy do so. Face gives identity to a person. Hiding it behind veil is equal to snatching a human’s identity. Burka is a public safety issue as well. More and more fujitives, terrorists and criminals are using Burqa to hide their identity in public or to conduct crimes. Few years back a jeweller in Brampton, Canada was robbed in broad daylight by Burka wearing robbers. Interestingly both the victim and some members of robbery gang belonged to orthodox Ahmadiyya sect that strongly believe in keeping women in Burka.


Despite being born and raised in a family where all women used to wear Burka, today I don’t feel comfortable in the presence of a Burka wearing person in public transit or shopping mall.

Amber Tahir at 6:28am June 24

I agree with Tarek should be modestly dressed up, applied for both genders, no need to hide identities .Women are two units of a pair. The Quran says: "O mankind! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one ... among you most careful (of his duty)Meaning that they complement each other in numerous ways both in mental, physical and emotional qualities. Islam looks at the different responsibilities of each gender. These responsibilities are defined as being the traditional family structure, where women are responsible for the household and men are responsible for earning the livelihood for the family. However women in Islam are seen as independent and self reliant individuals, therefore challenging the traditional view of a family structure.

Mark Warner at 9:22am June 24

Obama had it right in Cairo. Sarko got it wrong in Versailles. Compulsion is wrong whether from the left or the right or from the secular or the pious.

Tarek Fatah at 1:44pm June 24

Mark,If this is a matter of choice, then please enlighten me why, not a single Muslim man has ever chosen to wear the burka?I know for a fact that many bank robberies have been committed b y men wearing burkas and many terrorists have escaped law enforcement agencies wearing a burka, but other than that, why are no Muslim men opting to choose this black tent of shame as their regular attire?

Mark Warner at 3:05pm June 24

I am not a fan of the burka. I am uncomfortable when I see it. But honestly, all dress is cultural. When I lived in NY, I recall being horrified watching two young Hasidic boys playing outside on a sweltering hot day in their "religious" outfits. I also feel uncomfortable when I see scantily-clad over-sexualized pre-teens shopping with their ... parents in the grocery. The point is not to impose dress codes. It is to remove what ever elements of compulsion exist. Finally, Tarek, having lived for substantial periods in Brussels and Paris, I suffer no doubt that the rising anti-Muslim sentiment across Europe is just a code for legitimate racism. Sarko does not limit his attacks to the burka or those who wear them. He also is not a fan of the North African "racailles" who don't wear the burka.

Tarek Fatah at 3:31pm June 24

Mark,When in human history has a people covered their faces as an act of religosity?If you would not tolerate this nonsense on your wife or daughter, why do you want give it legitmacy and validation when it comes to my daughter or wife?... Read MoreAnd BTW, were those Jewish kids playing outside with their faces covered?You are missing the point as are too many decent men and women in the West whose goodwill and good faith is being milked by the very people who consider your 'uncovered wife, sister and daughter with a language that I better not use on FB.Don't get used by the forces that would rather see you dead than alive, unless of course you can join them and encase 'your' women in the black tent of shame.

Hayat Jomaa at 9:40pm June 24

i think perhaps you should reread what i wrote and maybe you would not misinterpret my logical approach to this situation as an apologetic one. i make no apologies for arabs or muslims. each individual is free to do what he/she wants to do. your approach to the situation that it must be changed, can only come through force and that is ... counterproductive to your agenda of liberating the enslaved women as you call them. therefore unless you have a practical solution besides forcing them to do the opposite of what they have been brainwashed to do then i suggest you put it forth. but if you are insinuating that these women should be liberated by forcing them into a way of life they strongly oppose then i would have to say you are not being practical. furthermore i have stated that if these women choose to continue to wear their burkhas they should not do so in a land that opposes this practice and must find a land that is welcoming to them

Mounira Gad at 9:43pm June 24

the Burka conceals identity, and so can work against society. Just like we do not allow people to walk the streets naked, we should not allow the burka.

Hayat Jomaa at 9:44pm June 24

freedom of choice should not be interpreted as a curse....perhaps this is beyond you to understand, but not everyone in this world have a homogenous approach to all situations and way of life. you dont have to believe in their belief, but you have to respect and not force your opinion on them. but again you should read once more what i wrote and ... please do not make assumptions as to my state of thought. my beliefs on this issue are irrelevant to this discussion. i look at all angles and make an analysis based on practicalities while continuing to take consideration of all cultures and religion.


  1. बहुत अच्छा संग्रह है। खुद ही बहुत कुछ कह देता है।

  2. कमाल है इतनी बहस "मर्द की नीयत" पर हो जाये तो सारा मसला सुलझ जाये ....

  3. o that's a wonderfully animated piece of discussion . thnk you for sharing it with us Hindivallahs !